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Post by Angeleyes on Jul 13, 2006 16:44:58 GMT 1
Martin, re: "We do have the choice of who we want to be around." If someone has children and they choose not to be around them, isn't that shirking their responsiblity as a parent?
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Post by Angeleyes on Jul 13, 2006 16:54:14 GMT 1
Well done to Mariaeleni. I had been going without my glasses quite a bit recently then yesterday I put them on to help my daughters tidy their room which took all day. Today I got up and put them on as I was driving this morning. I just realised when I came onto this messageboard that I was still wearing them, took them off and couldn't see the writing. What I realised is my life seems stressful lately. Is that because I'm choosing to see the issues in my life I've been avoiding until now? I realise I do this regularly, take off the glasses, life gets stressful and I put them on again and don't actually deal with the issues until sometime later I again take off the glasses, etc. Yet very little in my life changes although in some ways my life has changed for the better. Am I seeing 2 different realities? I confuse myself, stop looking and put the glasses back on. Help
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Post by Martin Brofman on Jul 13, 2006 18:48:14 GMT 1
Alice - >>>>>>>If someone has children and they choose not to be around them, isn't that shirking their responsibility as a parent?
Yes - a difficult moral question - but then again, if they are raising them with resentment, would it be better, perhaps, to see them in a happier environment with someone else? Can a parent raise children with resentment without abusing the children in some way? Would it be a loving act, for their sake, to make other arrangements?
>>>>>>What I realised is my life seems stressful lately. Is that because I'm choosing to see the issues in my life I've been avoiding until now?
No - it means you have been choosing to not look at the issues in your life that are stressful, and do something about them in order to no longer be stressed.
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Post by Spirit Girl on Jul 13, 2006 20:25:32 GMT 1
I am a little confused about the "I" and "We" and the correct balance of it. I thought that in myopia we change our personality ,our very being, to please other people or get their love. So doesn't it follow that I think they are more important than me? But on the other hand I can see that the focus is still on myself or "I" because I am changing myself to get love or approval and it feels good to "I" or me ( on the face of it) when I get it.
Spirit Girl
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Post by andrew on Jul 13, 2006 23:06:51 GMT 1
>>I am a little confused about the "I" and "We" and the correct balance of it. I thought that in myopia we change our personality ,our very being, to please other people or get their love. So doesn't it follow that I think they are more important than me?
I seem to be spending a few years trying to figure this out too!
This is how i now see it.
In myopia and astigmatism we dont change our very being but rather the role that we believe is our very being. After a while we cannot see clearly who we are.
The basic habit in myopia is self preoccupation, or worrying about how things will be for "I". We might feel we are "good" because we tend to please others before they tend to please us, but ultimately our focus is on pleasing us, **or rather** ending our discomfort. So we have a need to end a discomfort and that is driving our behaviour in a short sighted way of seeing. (unconscious need for instant rather than delayed gratification)
Astigmatism can confuse this picture because in astigmatism you are not following "I" but rather, what "I" has learnt or imagined that "you" has expected or demanded of "I". But now though it *seems* like it is what "I" is demanding of yourself.
I do have some tools that can help you separate out astigmatism from myopia based on the work of Roberto Kaplan if people are interested. This is not healing though. It is personal change stuff with very clear guidlines as to what needs to be changed based on your prescription in your glasses.
>>But on the other hand I can see that the focus is still on myself or "I" because I am changing myself to get love or approval and it feels good to "I" or me ( on the face of it) when I get it.
In reality i think that this feels *better* but it is not truelly satisfying. You get half of what you want but since you had to change to get what you got, it is not real and true for you. I think you *know* that if you thought you had more influence with them then you would want to be freer to express your deepest inner most nature with them.
I think the myope attempts to get more influence and power in order that they can get others to allow the myope to be freer. By its nature this is a power struggle. The other person feels overpowered and resists. The myope imagines the world is a difficult place.
And so the myope attempts to change the world but only rarely succeeds at this.
It is therefore an "I" orientated way of seeing.
However at the deepest most core of us, we are in some kind of pain. The problem is how to heal that while not overwhelming others with our need. So it comes back to seeing "you" in "we" once more. We also need to be clearer about what exactly is our need and then make the kinds of changes in our life that are likely to help us rather than defeat us.
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Post by Spirit Girl on Jul 14, 2006 4:13:26 GMT 1
HI Andrew I understand what you are saying now and I agree especially this part " we might feel we are "good" because we tend to please others before they tend to please us, but ultimately our focus is on pleasing us, **or rather** ending our discomfort". Maybe I want to feel I am "good" when I please others but in doing so I am compensating for the fact that I think I am "bad" and their approval makes me feel I am "good"! So I am thinking that in Myopia or any other "dis ease" first we feel some sort of emotional pain which results in us changing our personality or way of being to relieve this pain but actually it results in stress which then results in the physical symptoms. I may have every characteritic of the myope personality but that didn't cause my myopia - my state of mind, my consciouosness, my perceptions, my thoughts cause the myopia. Some other things I am pondering :- from the point of view of " I create my own reality" - why did I create myopia? I created or chose all this stuff to happen to me which resulted in my myopia? Ever since the age of 12 I think I have been a quest to cure this (in a natural way) and have explored numerous spiritual and metaphysical ideas. Maybe this was the reason I created it in the first place. To figure out the secrets of the universe Thanks for your input. Its appreciated. Spirit Girl
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Post by andrew on Jul 14, 2006 6:54:02 GMT 1
Spirit Girl I had a look at some of the other threads you had commented in. Here is a time line for you 0 to 6 lived in India 6 to 10 you lived in England. It seems that at this time you did love your parents? At age 10 for reasons that are not clear you were sent back to India. Possibly your parents could not manage financially with you and your brother and they felt this was the best thing for you until they had more resources to look after you? Because of their own way of being it appears they did not discuss this with you. Or maybe they did and you have forgotten? Either way it would have been a difficult experience for a child to go off into the unknown like this. Did you feel you had been bad and were being punished? 10 -13 You lived in India with relatives who provided for your basic requirements. You "at least" loved your grand parents. One aunt hated your mother. This experience does appear to have been difficult for you. Boring people living boring lives? So it was like a punishment? 13 and onwards you returned to your parents who by now may well have been like strangers to you? Again a difficult experience for a child to endure. Upon learning you had to return to England you had some strong feelings about this. It seems you did not want to return? At age 12 to 13 you became myopic *and* "I also developed hirsutism around the ages of 12-13." If you now re-read these posts that i found: bodymirror.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=vision&action=display&thread=1142897810&page=1#1143023068bodymirror.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1141020124&page=2#1147788479bodymirror.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1141020124&page=2#1142760390bodymirror.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=vision&action=display&thread=1142897810&page=1#1143095251It could be that because you were of Indian background you were naturally predisposed to have some hairs? In my own experience hair on women can be very sexy - I really cant relate to the shave it off mentality that now prevails - with the exception I suppose of facial hair i admit. If you resisted your own natural way this might have made the situation worse for you as per Martins comment on this and been quite frightening for you when you were only a child in a difficult situation already. I think that could easily explain the development of your myopia, where you went from a young girl full of hope for the future to a person traumatised by what was happening and hiding inside. Myopia is related to feeling insecure and trying to control life. Your way of being or your genetic history is something you got from your mum and dad. Also you were sent away at a vulnerable age. It might seem natural that you would hate them for what happened to you? Then again it was not really their fault at all but rather the way the universe unfolded at the time. I have some elderly friends who have helped me to see myself differently. They might have become my in laws and when this was looking unlikely they said to me that whatever happened they wanted me to still be their friend. These people are also very bigoted and set in their ways about certain issues. To begin with we had some lively arguments about these subjects but they were never resolved and it began to become painful to keep experiencing the same difficulties. They obviously were not going to agree with me nor i with them. The old man, a combat veteran, can be very scary but he does like me and I him. I decided to ensure that whenever the difficult areas come up that i would not get involved. So now a few sentences come out, I tend to laugth and they laugth and nothing more is said. In some ways it is a bit boring not to have the old arguments as they were tremendously exciting sometimes, then again the old man is 82 and its not only my health and safety that i need to consider! My parents too could be very bigoted. With them i never really learnt to enjoy what i could enjoy and set aside what i could not. If you love your parents, accept that. Allow the love in and dont set up in judgement of them because they are different to you. Whatever thoughts and theories you may come up with it does not stop you loving them if you do love them. In a manner of speaking your continual love *is* true love. It is unconditional regardless of their habits and failings. Accept the love! Andrew
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Post by Martin Brofman on Jul 14, 2006 11:33:50 GMT 1
If you consider that you have been seeing through the filter of fear, you have been holding yourself back from being who you are because of fear of being judged, or of not being loved, and using these needs as the over-riding consideration for your decisions.
Anyway, Andrew seems to be deeply into this with you, so I will leave it for now between the two of you.
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Post by Spirit Girl on Jul 14, 2006 13:01:12 GMT 1
Hi Andrew and Martin
Thank you so much for the feedback! I appreciate it so much. And writing it down helps.
I will be out all day today away from the computer so I will respond tomorrow. Will be pondering this further.
Thanks for being there
Spirit Girl
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Post by Spirit Girl on Jul 18, 2006 16:23:13 GMT 1
HI Andrew
I think you are right on the mark when you say that deep down we are really in pain and trying to heal this and make ourselves feel better.
I am now seeing that no matter what my experiences have been since my birth I was the one who chose certain thoughts and conclusions as a result of those experiences. And vica versa. Those conclusions that I chose were painful to me. Nobody got inside my head and told me to think a certain way - I did it all by myself ;D As a result I can reverse those thoughts as well.
Basically what my experiences are reflecting back to me are the beliefs "I am bad" "I am wrong" incorrect, inappropriate etc. The relection is what has been painful to see and the thing that I do not want to see or want to avoid seeing. This is the reason that I try to avoid contact with people. I felt as if I have to protect myself from their judgements and criticisms knowing little that it was just a reflection in my 3D mirror. In addition, no matter what I think about other people judging or criticizing me , it has been ME in the end who has been the harshest judge and jury and critic regarding myself!! Things are falling into place for me and I am certain I am on the right track. I feel touched that you cared enough to go thru my posts to give me some guidance. I thank you for that.
SG
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Post by Martin Brofman on Jul 18, 2006 16:31:52 GMT 1
Sounds like you have the courage to look inside yourself and see the truth. I honor that in you.
...and thanks, Andrew, for your dedication and help with this.
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Post by andrew on Jul 18, 2006 22:21:08 GMT 1
Spirit Girl
Nice to hear back from you.
I am myopic so i was worrying you might not reply:-)
I want to help and it feeds me in some way to help if i can do this.
It also feeds me to know that I have Martins support. So thank you Martin for that.
Something is possibly beginning to stand out in your story so far. It is related to feeling loved or rather not feeling loved or fearing not being loved. I am inclined to think that myopia is related to fear of love. After all, even for an adult a relationship breakdown hurts like hell. It requires skill to chose to focus our minds to something different that is pleasant or distracting for sufficient time that we can let go of our attachment to the loved person. How does a child cope with the perception of loss of love, or the fear of that happening? Chances are there will be a withdrawal or retreat inside for some children.
Which is easier for a child? To fear not being loved or in fact when faced with that to just be bad and therefore potentially loveable if they were good? That could then be a way of living life. A way of avoiding ever testing if the child was able to be loved and a way of forever avoiding the possibility of being hurt.
Another child might in fact be good, but imagine they are bad to create the same way of protecting themself from fearing not being loved. I think this is likely to be the myopic child.
Do you see my direction here?
I think you were hurt when you were sent away on the plane back to India. The next stage is to consciously see your fears around this area of being loved and then as you already are doing begin to move back towards building relationships with people.
If you are frightened of being loved by your parents would it not make these people scary or loathable?
Probably it will be easier for you to build love relationships away from the difficulties you have with your parents but once you do have these other relationships then it is likely that you will begin to allow in your parents love. This is just the way it works:-)
As an aside, one posative thing about people judging you or criticising you is that these people are taking the time to notice you and be concerned about you. From their point of view they are asking "why are you doing that? How can that help you? I want you to do things differently because i think it will be better for you and help our relationship and that will benefit you" So from their point of view it can be truelly an expression of their love for you, even if it does not seem like that.
At the end of the day i dont think anybody actually likes being judged, but sometimes it can be a useful way of learning about ourselves. I have noticed for example if somebody very skillfully presents their judgment of me that i am prepared to listen to anything they say about me but if it is unskillful I feel attacked and dont listen and get annoyed. Effectively I judge who can be my friend or my foe based on their ability to be skillful in their **delivery** rather than the **content** itself. And in that regard it is important that my friends can tell me what they think rather than what i want to hear.
I have by the way plenty of time and learn something about myself from this kind of dialogue so from my point of view i am happy to help if I can
Thanks
Andrew
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Post by Spirit Girl on Jul 19, 2006 17:11:20 GMT 1
Hi Andrew I agree with what you are saying - myopia is related to fear of love! But in my case is because I associate love with control. If somebody tells me "Don't go to this certain place or I'll be worrying about you" - well that sounds more like control than love to me (even tho I can certainly understand their fear.) I felt it was my job to soothe their fears or anxiety and make them happy. So I did what they wanted. I stuffed down my excitement to do this. But the basic thoughts that drive this behavior still are "I am bad, wrong, incorrect etc'" After all I change my behavior in order to appear good in their eyes (good being defined as doing what they want) If I thought I was good (deep down inside of me) why would there be any need to change my behavior? I think this is why I try to keep people especially family at a distance. I just feel I should be a certain way for them - I guess I have images in my head of how a good daughter or good aunt or good sister should be ie. interested in their lives, supportive, remembering their birthdays etc. Because if I somehow behave how I want to behave in any moment that is not acceptable in the area of relationships. Actually in reality I am not interested in their day to day lives, I don't want to support them emotionally or worry about remembering their birthdays or most other things. I feel if I don't do this then I am being bad or inappropriate. I can see all this more clearly now since I am working on changing my thought patterns to thinking that I am good and wonderful just the way I am and no matter what I do!!! I feel more strong and grounded. Writing all this down makes it much more clearer. I feel grateful that I am able to do this in this safe space. Hopefully this may be helping other readers. ps. I am not able to post everyday to this board since I am out of town from time to time SG
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Post by andrew on Jul 19, 2006 23:23:54 GMT 1
Hi Spirit Girl
I can definately relate to this view that being loved seems like being controlled. It does seem as if some people express their love in a way that is more about "this is what i want you to do, and if you do this then i will love you more or sufficiently and if you do not do this then i am going to be angry and even scary until you do it differently"
The natural result of such a perception is to resent the person who behaves like this.
On the other hand, is it not true for you that often when others do what *you* want them to do that you feel happier and more able to love them? I think in fact this is universally true for all of us.
Martin says in his vision book that doing what others want you to do is an expression of your love for them. This I think only becomes a problem when you lose sight of who you are and what you feel and what you want that *should not be compromised away in order to please another*. Now personally i think we have all got some odd ideas about the nature of love. What is love? I think we have Romantic love, unconditional love, Hollywood kind of love versus practical, pragmatic, facts of live kind of love.
And it is probably true that certain styles of loving do lead to myopia. But for each child who becomes myopic in the same situation there are other children who do not become myopic.
When a child is doing or about to do something dangerous, those that love them have choices.
1. They can intervene and attempt to prevent *possible* harm to the child
or
2. They can assume that all will be well one way or another. The child might even get harmed but the loving person will know they are unlikely to do that again.
And we can look back into our own lives and see such situations and think 1. "this person was very interfering in that situation " or 2. "this person did not care in that situation"
But in reality, whatever their style, in the examples above these people did care.
And remember transforming myopia is largely about transforming perceptions. Nothing much has to actually change. All that is needed is that this moment you see it all differently and just go "It is a good life i have. I am free, I love my life. I have so much to look forwards to".......as opposed to something more negative which is more about looking backwards or inside yourself.
Which then brings us to the idea of our own internal guidance system. Partly this is something we are born with and partly it is something related to what we learn.
loving of the number 1. type tends to interfere with our internal guidance system because we can end up rejecting sensible choices because "thats what they want me to do". So we are talking about rebellion here, or "shooting myself in the foot". :-) However to arrive at "who we are" rather than "who others want us to be" then we must all necessarily become rebels until we have worked this out for ourselves.
So here you are, beginning to stand tall and feeling free and in some way somewhat rebellious? I have the impression of you saying "I am not going to take it anymore! I am going to be free to be me!!!" So far so good! :-)
The hard part about returning to clearness is working out what to reject and what to keep of other peoples values. You need to find your own values but almost certaintly you will in fact keep some of the same values that others had.
For example if essentially people in your life were well meaning and provided for you, then it might be honouring your own internal guidance system to show in some manner that you do in some small way thank them for what they have done for you.
So when you say "I feel if I don't do this then I am being bad or inappropriate." in some manner perhaps it is true for you that you need to come up with some method whereby you have some contact with them that feels OK for you that does reflect what you do really really feel and what you do really really want to do which is not *only* a total rejection of them?
Therefore when you look consciously at your choices maybe you will see that there are possibilities there than can help you to feel true to yourself without totally abandoning them, which will go someway towards satisfying each side of this situation?
You dont need to have any contact with them at all, but if that does not feel right then maybe its something you can resolve and find a solution to?
Andrew
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Post by Spirit Girl on Jul 19, 2006 23:54:37 GMT 1
Hi Andrew, I agree with all that you have written. You are right when you say we love people more who do things for us but then I would not want somebody else to do that for me if it makes them unhappy! Because I know how it feels. And I also agree that it is all a matter of perception. But I also think that our perception is based on our beliefs of who we are. So if I believe that I am bad then my perception of any charged situation will be distorted. Actually my perception will then reflect that belief back to me. So in the end i have to clear these negative and stressful beliefs. And I am seeing a more clearer picture of myself and my life. Also another belief that I have uncovered related to fear is that if I am being bad or wrong then I will be punished. Maybe by God, the world, some hidden punishing entity But I don't believe in a God or infinite intelligence who punishes so I can work on throwing that belief out. I think its hard to listen to our guidance system sometimes because of these emotions of anger and fear etc. But I haven't done too badly in life so I must have been doing something right Thanks for being there. SG
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